Wednesday, November 30, 2005

Mogul Tips in New Hampshire Magazine

The December issue of New Hampshire Magazine includes a short, how-to mogul article of mine. Although the article's introduction is slightly inaccurate (I don't compete "all over the world"), skiers should find the mogul-skiing advice of some use.

If you're interested, look for the piece in the magazine's "UpFront" section.

-dd

29 Comments:

Blogger Kevin said...

Nice to see a blog about moguls! I set up a video podcast dedicated to moguls and skiing in general, primarily in Killington and the Northeast. Will check out your tips in the Ski Mag.

11:06 AM  
Blogger Dan DiPiro said...

Thanks for the comment, Kevin.
-dd

6:17 AM  
Anonymous Anonymous said...

Greetings from cousin John B in NJ !!

3:56 PM  
Blogger Dan DiPiro said...

Cousin John, thanks for logging on!
-Dan

9:18 PM  
Blogger joem said...

JimG.
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Joined: 24 Sep 2004
Posts: 370
Location: Hopewell Jct, NY; Avatar-starting the climb up Hillman's

Posted: Wed Dec 07, 2005 9:48 am Post subject: re: why bump skiers rule

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Here's a thought for all you bumpers:

I was skiing with sheahunter this past weekend and we were discussing poles; I always listen to sheahunter because he is the finest bump skier that I ski with regularly. He told me to keep my elbows tight in to my body, that I should actually feel my elbows against my torso.

This is an example of where bump technique goes against PSIA doctrine, where you're told to keep your elbows up and away from your body. I don't know if it's just because it seemed new and strange to me or what, but I really struggled to keep my elbows in tight. They kept flying away from my body like wings.

Anyway, the reason given for keeping those elbows tight was to facilitate stacking, i.e. keeping shoulders, hips, and knees aligned over feet. It seemed harder for me to stay stacked when I kept my elbows in tight, but that may just be because I'm not used to it and I was concentrating too much on my poles and arms.

I'd like to hear some feedback.
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JimG.
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Joined: 24 Sep 2004
Posts: 370
Location: Hopewell Jct, NY; Avatar-starting the climb up Hillman's

Posted: Wed Dec 07, 2005 9:51 am Post subject: Re: re: why bump skiers rule

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HDHaller wrote:
This is a great thread.
H.


Please, join in with any feedback you may have.
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joegm
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Joined: 03 Oct 2004
Posts: 447
Location: boston, ma

Posted: Fri Dec 16, 2005 4:12 pm Post subject: re: why bump skiers rule

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Jim, I saw this a while ago but wanted to get on hill and put it into action first…
I ‘m not following. I was a little suspect when I read it but wasn’t sure. One of my main issues is being foreward.. let’s be honest , it’s probably 99 % of the problem for everyone. Whether up top or down below. Having my arms touching my torso makes me feel less committed to being “ foreward “…I played around with it for a few hours but just can’t buy into it. Now I could be misinterpreting the read and not doing what Allan actually says, but I’m not getting it at this time. To me , it doesn’t jive with off hand drive. I constantly am trying to drive my just un-planted hand down the line. I can’t justify this action in my head and at the same time keep my elbow in tight. Look at the link here on the W cuppers…I just don’t see a tight elbow in on the torso. http://skidebosses.com/2006/cm01ti/cm01ti.htm

In my mind, the idea of keeping them in tight, at the very least , makes you neutral in terms of committing to the line… and at the worst puts you back. I don’t know what do you think.
Do you and allen have john smart’s video?
Did youor allen have a chance to think about that 80 to 90% of the weight on the downhill ski thing? Our theory is this. After weightshift and knee roll at the crest, 90 % of the weight has to instantaneously shift to the downhill ski. That edge is rode down backside AND UP FRONTSIDE to the crest where the weight shift to the new downhill happens…my buddy and I think we have been shifting to early, early like front side . we think we do this , in a way, to speed check. The results have been knee separation after striking the front side. When we super slow mo smarts video, these guys clearly are riding their down hill ski on backside and frontside of the bumps. Not sure it you have had any bumps yet. Let me know. I’ll put his up on DD’s site too to see if it gets any hits

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4:15 PM  
Anonymous cj said...

Joem,

What is the link to this thread? Also, the Fins started a technique called shoulder supression which keeps the elbows and arms close to the body. It is essentially letting your shoulders settle downward and slightly tightening you lats. This keeps your hands from getting out to the side or behind you.

cj

11:31 AM  
Anonymous cj said...

Nevermind Joegm. I found the link. I am going to join the forum. It is good to see that there is at least one or two other people out there that take mogul skiing seriously enough to go out and learn about it from some of the best teachers in the world. BTW, I go to Chuck Martin's camps (Mogul Logic) and it is good to see that there are others out there who know what knee roll, lead change, correct shin pressure, etc. are and how essential they are to skiing bumps the right way.

cj

1:53 PM  
Blogger Dan DiPiro said...

Hey Joe and CJ,

Glad you guys are making a connection here on the blog! A couple of thoughts:

1. Jim G's elbows-tight-againt-the body thing sounds really restrictive to me. When you're in full absorption in bumps, you need a decent range of arm motion to plant and release the pole. A range that probably isn't possible with elbows tight against the body. CJ's "elbows CLOSE to the body" is probably more like it. Tough to tell what "close" means without a demo, though. And close for one bumper could be too close for another, depending on build, body type. (Some things can vary a little from person to person. And some things, by the way, just don't matter that much.) I saw in the forum that Jim has since abandoned this elbows-tight thing.

FYI, due to a chronic shoulder-dislocation problem, I ski with my left arm strapped to my waist with two straps, two cuffs, and a belt, so I do some funky things with my arms. Tried to keep everything normal looking for the book photos, but my arms aren't perfect in every shot.

2. I obviously believe that it's important to recognize the techniques unique to mogul skiing, especially when the establishment tells us that mogul skiing has no special techniques, just some little tactical eccentricities. My whole book is built around this idea: here's how groomed-trail gurus do it, and here's how and why the bumper does it differently.

To argue our point well, though, we need to be aware of which techniques are unique to the bumps and which techniques are used by all skiers. Knee roll, lead change and shin-tongue pressure are important to all skiers, not just bumpers. And, Joe, to follow-up on a topic we discussed on a forum somewhere, the way mogul skiers pressure their skis ("left-ski-right-ski weight distribution") is similar to the way most good skiers do it on groomed trails, and VERY similar to the way all good skiers did it before shaped skis came along.

Hope you guys are enjoying the snow!

-Dan

3:27 PM  
Anonymous cj said...

Right on Dan! When Chuck explained the shoulder supression thing to us, he basically said that it keeps the arms and hands in a good position (in line with the shoulders). I have been guilty of chicken winging a bit in the past, and have been trying to use this technique to remedy the situation and it seems to be working (Dave Babic told me also to keep my hands lower and in tighter).

As I mentioned in my reply on the first tracks forum, there is really no way to get lateral absorption and have your arms glued to your side. I think Mikko Ronkanien (and most of the Fin team) is a great example of this technique. His elbows don't always stay glued at his side, especially when absorbing, but they certainly return to position on extension.

I am pretty psyched about this season and have determined that I am going to REALLY work a lot on drills on the flats this year. I work on them every year, but this year I am really going to concentrate on it. Plus, we don't have any bumps yet at our local mountains, however we have been building some (I even bought a foldable avalanche shovel to aid in the builds) but they get groomed out in a few days. We did have a really sweet line going last weekend in some soft snow... it was a blast!

Later and rip it up! The rest of the ski world will eventually see the light.

cj

3:50 PM  
Blogger Dan DiPiro said...

CJ,

Too cool that you've had the opportunity to train with Chuck Martin and Dave Babic. You're lucky to be training with two of the best.

Keep up the good work, CJ.

-Dan

4:05 PM  
Anonymous cj said...

Hey Dan, the funny thing is that anyone can! All they have to do is really want to learn to ski bumps better and attend Chuck's camp (or one of the others... World, Momentum, etc). It is really eye opening, that's for sure. Chuck is just such a master technician and a really good motivator. I am also psyched to ski with Ann Battelle in Feb, as I have never skied with her, but I heard she is tough as a coach. I really wanted to ski with John Dowling this summer, but the adults didn't get him this year. He must know a thing or two, having coached the likes of Jeremy Bloom and such.

I wish all the luck to Babic in 06. I am going to head up to the final WC at Whiteface to see the final showdown before the Olympics. This is already shaping up to be a very interesting WC season! This will be the best Olympics yet... I can't wait!

cj

6:12 PM  
Anonymous cj said...

Oh, by the way, you are REALLY lucky getting to ski with one of the best in the business on a weekly basis!

Later,

cj

6:14 PM  
Blogger Jim Garson said...

Figured I'd join in here too...it's nice to have a home for mogul devotees. I abandoned the "elbows in tight" drill but after reading cj's description of shoulder supression I'll be thinking about that this coming weekend. Elbows tight was way too restrictive, but the thought of tightening the lats against the triceps makes more sense and will help keep my arms from flying away from my body and will keep my hands driving forward. Can't wait.

I think my passion for bumps comes from this constant discovery of new and better ways of skiing them.

10:19 AM  
Anonymous cj said...

Hey Jim,

Great to see that there are others that have the addiction, it just leaves you wanting more!

Chuck Martin used to have a really good video on his web site of Mikko (I looked last night and I think he removed it) and you could really see how his elbows would come in on extension, especially on the downhill side shoulder. I actually have the clip on dvd and watched it last night and due to this discussion I was able to see things that I did not see before. The Fins really punch the opposing hand forward which causes some elevation in the elbow. I am going to keep working on this technique. I find that if you can get a technique squared away on the flats, it will translate into the bumps. IMO, video is the best way to see how you look in the bumps vs flats. For the most part, my skiing looks that same on the flats as it does in the bumps, so I am always working on stuff on the flats. Let me know how it goes after you try it. Also, try and locate some video of the Fins to reinforce/clarify my amateur/laymans description.

In the mean time, I need to work on getting more pull (foot containment) on the backside. You can never have too much pull or too much shin pressure, that's for sure.

cj

11:24 AM  
Blogger Dan DiPiro said...

Joe, Jim, CJ:
Great to have you all on the blog!

Yeah, Jim, aren't bumps a sort of frontier? There are still little technical discoveries left to be made!

CJ... foot containment, yes. Have you heard it described as "patient feet?" I like that, too. Make your feet patient... keep them under you, patiently waiting for the bump. Of course, in the book, I focus on driving the hips down the hill, which puts the body over the feet, centers you over the ski.

Enjoy your weekend, guys!
-Dan

6:39 AM  
Blogger joem said...

cj,
ive been tied up at work but i have been thinking about this. i've been looking at tapio and sami from the first wc event this year on skidebosses and trying to pick it up.. the quality of video is not that good so it is tough at times. this past week at K , i was thinking about it but did not try it to any great extent as i have been awful the past 2 weeks with my foot containment and have been directing every bit of brain energy i posses to being contained . no skiing for us this week but i will start on this next week on the flats at loon for sure.... i think i need more help understanding this though... where do you ski?
Double D your thoughts on this technique?

12:09 AM  
Blogger joem said...

is it more critical for bumpers to be on the balls of their feet more of the time than racers? and then, tying this to jeff's post, does being on bump skis with shovels under say 95cm and less side cut make unbuckled boots a relatively more effectivel drill than if one is on modern gs type skis ?

12:16 AM  
Blogger joem said...

my feet have been incredibly "impatient " the last 2 weeks on the hill... DD describes it exactly the way i have been taught to look at it for about 2 years now. i fall apart from head to toe when i start reaching with my feet, which i have been doing for the last 2 weeks after feeling like i was being very patient the first 3 weeks of the season.

12:21 AM  
Blogger joem said...

we have a buddy from momentum camp, dave leon ( an older guy like us who lives for bumps !!!!) , from south africa who now lives in Australia and comes out to john smarts camp for a few days each year. well dave's son who is a freestyle skier, used ot be roomates with dale begg smith, curretnly on WC for australia. i just saw dale won the world cup this week in germany. dave showed us some video of dale this summer... i would have to say , i love dale as a potential gold in italy this year....there is something a little different about this guys turns... he jsut seems to have a different style to his turns than janne or jeremy.

12:33 AM  
Anonymous cj said...

Joem,

My local ski areas are in PA. Small ski areas, but we get pretty good bumps. Watch the 3rd video down on the Mogul Logic website of Sammi Mustonen... it shows it pretty well how they pull there elbows in on extension, particullarly on the downhill side (talk about being stacked!). The uphill/opposing elbow comes away from the body because he is countering forward with that hand, but the elbow returns in and that is the function of shoulder supression. It is more of a suttle feeling, rather that a tensing stiff feeling. I know for me it is a lot harder to do than it looks, espescially when skiing deeper, tighter bumps. But I will keep working on it.

Dale definately is tight and has a shot, but this has been an interesting WC year so far... it almost seems wide open for the top guys. BTW, where is Janne... is he resting up for the final few events and then the Olympics?

As far as the boots unbuckled, I have seen some high level racers do it, but I don't know what sensation they are trying to get, since they do let up shin pressure more than bumpers do, to get acceleration in their turns. I definately think that good bumpers are always on the balls of their feet and just crushing the front of the boot. Therefore this drill is of a lot of use to bump skiers in getting that sensation.

DD, patience... ah, yes... letting the bump come to you. That definately helps me as well. I found that the best place to get this feeling is in the rollers/absorption tank. Man, I wish we could get those at our local areas, but there are not enough bump skiers and there is a lot of maintenance involved. Those things force you to be really patient and actively pull your feet back under you. As one coach described Janne, he gets so much pull that his bindings almost hit him in the butt on the back side of the bump.

cj

11:18 AM  
Anonymous cj said...

Dan,

BTW, absolutely awesome part in the article about vision. One of the best that I have seen.

cj

2:32 PM  
Blogger Dan DiPiro said...

Hey, Joe and CJ.

Joe, my take on the poling/arms thing: I focus on hands down the hill, ~shoulder-width apart, and I don't think too much about elbows. The Fin thing CJ describes is new to me.

Racers, bumpers, powder skiers and all skiers need to be centered over their skis. Too far back or too far forward isn't good for any sort of downhill skiing. It might be tougher to stay centered in the bumps, though.

Yes, patient feet... tough to master sometimes, particularly on challenging terrain. When you do it right, when you get your feet under you (or drive your hips ahead -- two sides of the same coin, really)you feel like you're falling down the hill with each extension, which can be an unsettling feeling and make you almost instinctually shoot your feet ahead to protect yourself. Joe, try getting your feet under you on a real easy groomer (CONSTANT shin-tongue contact all the way down the hill), then work your way slowly back into the bumps, maintaining those patient feet (or, to put it yet another way, maintaining that good stacked position) until you're back in the bumps.

Just finished the first of five straight days of coaching. We received some rain yesterday, but our bump course has held up nicely.

CJ, glad you liked the vision description in the article. Thanks.

-Dan D

6:30 PM  
Blogger joem said...

This kinda got me thinking... I wonder how Sergei Shupletsov would have stacked up in today's environment? I think that his style changed mogul skiing and the Fins definately have a similar style, probably derived from him. If he were still around, it would have made for a really spectacular show with him against Janne for the past several years. However, he probably would have retired after the 02 Olympics where he would have been around 32 years old.

What do you guys think?



Yeah, Dale Begg Smith. But don't forget the Americans! Mayer, Cabral, Roberts and others. Bloom might be distracted by NFL dreams. We'll see how the trials go in Steamboat tomorrow, though.
-HDH
_________________


mayer is an animal... he took that year off and i think it did him good.. his airs look pretty spot on to me so far. my opinion was he should have had the gold over janne in 02 as i thought his turns were a little bit better. not that i don't love janne, but i think in 02 mayer just beat him out with the turns and lost it in the air. i did hear something about mayer though that about a year ago he blew a stop sign in ny state and killed a woman in another car. anyone know anything about that? is mayer hooked up with chuck and logic cd?
cd posted about sergie shupletsov in a different post. i saw some film of sergie a couple of years ago in a video review seesion at sms with a coach named chris rybeck out of co. rybeck was a non- rock star who never made the us team but was probably the best coach i have ever had with smart.
he was all over sergie's style and kept showing us the knee angles and absorption sergie would get on that film were insane, plus you can see it a little in his short cip in fistful of moguls also. this was just around the time we were just getting into the tyechnical aspects of mogul skiing and probably didn't totally understand what chris was trying to show us. but i can appreciate it now.
another old schooler that i really like is / was jean juc brassard. super big angles and the only guy i ever saw to consistently try and throw the double cossack...that makes him cool right there

10:27 PM  
Blogger Dan DiPiro said...

Interesting. Never heard about that Mayer car accident thing before. Yeah, I really like his skiing and have always prefered it to Bloom's. But Bloom edged him out yesterday in the Gold Cup / Olympic trial event.
As for great bumpers of old, two have held fast for me over the years: Edgar Grospiron and Steve Desovich. Grospiron for unflinching guts and aggression in steep, natural bumps. And Desovich for his virtuoso technique.

7:51 AM  
Anonymous jim garson said...

I've been playing with the shoulder suppression technique that cj described, at least my understanding of it. All I did was think about keeping my triceps in tight against my lats as I was skiing. This did NOT make me feel as though I was keeping my elbows in tight which felt extremely restrictive.

I need more mileage to be really comfortable with this, and I sense the technique is to be used more as an ideal and less as a constant state, but it definitely made me feel more compact in bumps. My arms stopped flying away from me and I resisted my habit of reaching out too far for the next bump.

I guess the best word for what this did was to make me a bit more patient. Everything seemed to slow down for me and I was much better at allowing the bumps to come to me as opposed to me charging after them. Worked especially well in this past weekend's mostly dust on crust conditions.

I will keep playing with this idea...it works.

1:07 PM  
Blogger Dan DiPiro said...

Jim,
Sounds like the shoulder suppression thing is working for you. I think the shoulder brace I wear actually makes me do this. Makes me do a bunch of other quirky things, too, though.
-Dan

8:20 AM  
Anonymous cj said...

Dan,

When I watched the the Steamboat Olympic trials I noticed that Tim Preston skied with his elbows tighter to his body than most of the other US guys (and it made his upper body look really quiet).

Can you find out if he is using shoulder supression or some similar technique? I would be very interested in knowing if this is just his style or something that he was coached on.

Thanks,

cj

10:36 AM  
Blogger joem said...

looks like travis is off the hook

http://www.google.com/search?sourceid=navclient&ie=UTF-8&rls=SUNA,SUNA:2005-45,SUNA:en&q=travis+mayer+car+accident

12:12 PM  
Blogger Dan DiPiro said...

CJ, I'll ask Nick Preston and the other mogul coaches about that. Yes, I, too, noticed Tim's hands and arms in that Gold Cup run... remarkably, even perfectly, quiet.

Thanks for that link, Joe. Interesting info I hadn't seen.

-Dan

11:11 AM  

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